The centralized administration of the Roman Catholic Church is not a theological necessity. It may be the best way of administering the Church under current circumstances; or another way may be best.
The current situation is the result of the papacy’s attempts to preserve the unity of the church which was threatened by nationalist, Protestant, and later totalitarian movements. The French revolution swept away all the old feudal structures that had limited the centralization of administration in Rome, focusing more and more attention on the person of the pope.
But a church with over a billion members is too big to be administered in every detail from Rome; in fact much is left up to the bishops and local organizations.
Bishops failed in their handling of sexual abuse, and they suffered no consequences.
John Allen and the Jesuit Hans Zollner discuss this in the context of Benedict’s reform attempts:
One of the reasons it’s tough to style Benedict as a reformer, at least in the United States, is precisely because the perception is that bishops have not been held accountable. We have a bishop in Kansas City who pled guilty to not reporting suspected child abuse, Cardinal Bernard Law of Boston received a position in Rome, and now Cardinal Roger Mahony is on his way to the conclave despite having been relieved of administrative and public duties by his successor. What about accountability for bishops?
I know this is a constant question from American journalists and the public. I was there when Monsignor Scicluna responded to your question on this point at the symposium last year.
He said we need greater accountability mechanisms for bishops.
Yes, the question really is not resolved. It’s complicated to work out clear procedures, partly because civil law and church law often don’t coincide in many instances and in many countries. We’ve tried to promote understanding of this point, but I know it’s hard to do. The civil law in the United States on these issues, for instance, is not the law in other countries. What your people ask for may not be what Germans, or Italians, or Malaysians, would ask for, and so it’s hard to arrive at a common standard [of accountability] for the entire world.
Obviously, we have to think about how accountability for bishops can be put in place, clearly and recognizably. Despite its hierarchical nature, the church actually doesn’t have clear procedures for some of these issues. For instance, the role of the bishops’ conference [in enforcing accountability] is not clear, the role of the Metropolitan is not clear.
I was a bit surprised by Monsignor Scicluna’s reply to you, because he seemed to suggest that it all goes back to the pope. The poor pope can’t possibly deal with every one of these situations. There have to be intermediate steps, and these are not yet in place. That’s probably true not only of the church, but of many other institutions. Who’s responsible for a teacher who abuses a child in a school? Is it the principal, the superintendent, the regional administrator, the minister for education in that country?
Benedict did nothing to make bishops co-responsible. Perhaps he could not imagine what could be done, or the task of restructuring 5,000 bishops was beyond his strength – there would be massive opposition, bishops do not want to be held responsible.
The western church used to have a synodal structure; there could be other ways on introducing the laity into the process. One danger is that any local organizations would be subject to pressure from hostile governments, pressure which the Vatican is in a better position to resist.
There is no easy, obvious, universal solution – which doesn’t mean there isn’t one. Perhaps the next pope will begin to develop both the idea and practice of co-responsibility in the church.
Mary
Leon,
We were always taught that the Bishops were responsible for correct Catholic teaching in their respective Diocese. That is why an “Impramatur”from a Bishop was needed for publications that claimed to be Catholic. For that matter, the approval from the Local Ordinary was needed to label any Organization as “Catholic”.
I undersatnd that “Real Catholic tv” online video presentations were forced to change their title to “Church Militant “because the Bishop in the Diocese where they recorded required them to remove “Catholic” from their name. A similar situation was faced by Mother Angelica by her Bishop when she stated we did not receive the entire Third Secret of Fatima from Rome , criticized Roger Mahony and required the priests to face the altar rather than the congregants in the “Temple” church she built.
For decades Catholic parents complained to their Bishops about the heterodox priests, catechisms and religion classes in parochial schools all over the country.
In Philadelphia years ago grandmothers rented a dump truck, collected the newer Catechisms and dumped them on the lawn in front of Cardinal Krol’s residence after being ignored .”Mother’s Watch” has been documenting the anti Catholic nature of many publications and programs being used in parochial schools for years now.
There has been a lack of recourse to any Local Ordinary for the laity in a very long time and not just about the clerical sexual abuse either.
To his credit Archbishop Scicluna has stated that Bishops should be held accountable and should listen to the people. A conceptual practice that is way overdue.
My own acquaintances who worked in several Chancery offices have told me that when the laity sent petitions or personal letters of complaint they were filed as “dissidents”. When they wrote to the Vatican the letters were sent back to the Bishop in whose Diocese they originated from.
How can these problems be considered as logistical governance difficulties rather than a real lack of unity amongst those in the Heirarchy as to what is and is not Catholic teaching?
WHO sees to it that the role of Bishop is not just that of a figurehead and a meeting attendee?
WHO corrects the Bishop who does not fulfill the traditional responsibility of the title’s postion?
Collegiality appears to much of the laity to mean protection in the good ole boys club, rather than Church governance and protection of the sacred.
Meanwhile, the title of Pope has been preached as the ultimate inspired authority and used as a photo op credibile stamp of approval for “holy”organizations and persons like Maciel . No wonder the world assumes the buck rests in the lap of tired elderly sick old men.
What other institution anywhere operates this way?
Mary Ann
It is a matter of doctrine that the Pope has immediate and direct responsibility and authority over everyone in the Church. He can appoint a bishop. He can remove a bishop from a see. The reliance on collegiality in case of a bad bishop is a flimsy non-starter. Collegiality has never been used for discipline, and it is not meant to be a localized synodal affair anyway.
Mary
Perhaps the problem is Mary Ann is that the Pope reviews a file written by other clerics ( like minded friends) before he approves and names a Bishop or a Cardinal and he allegedly goes on recommendations when he tranfers a Bishop
too . So just where and in whose hands is the real oversight anyway? We are all saddened by the results and horrors of the last Pontificate now known as the “Great”,in which the CDF knew but did little to rectify the clerical pederast situation.As you are well aware RCF and Steve Brady struggled to break through the tight knit old boys club. It appears that unless the secular media was involved via Jason Berry the LC/RC would be exactly where they were and we might even be asking St Maciel to pray for us now!i recall reading about the LC escaping seminarians
from the LC Westchester, NY home first covered by Gerald Renner of the Hartford Courant back in the early nineties.Sadly precious few piously minded Catholics wanted to believe the accounts of cult behaviors in the RC and Legion back then because the Pope approved!
Interestingly, the Legion purchased the house from Sun Myung Moon where it was previously used in like manner to sequester Moonie youth who had joined that cult.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/globalpost-blogs/belief/pope-benedict-legion-christ-scandal
Alton,
You asked about the monies being spent by religious on gay rights? A good place to start is
the chapter on Grammick and Nugent in ROS – (‘Rite of Sodomy’ by Randy Engel) Look under p.1019 Catholic Coalition for Gay Rights. It lists many of the orders who helped launch the Homosexual Rights Movement. in the Church.
Mary
“It is a matter of doctrine that the Pope has immediate and direct responsibility and authority over everyone in the Church.”
It seems Doctrine was ditched a long time ago or is this below considered Doctrinally okay for Catholic parish activities? It has been okay in three surrounding Diocese here for decades! I was told by “Dissidents” who complained that they were told to go to another church by the Chancery.Personally, we experienced a Bishop who came to tell us off in public from the altar for writing him a letter of complaint concerning our own cross dressing pastor who told us God did not reside in the Tabernacle or “Box” as he referred to it.
http://cal-catholic.com/wordpress/2013/01/09/gay-program-at-st-francis-parish-sacramento/
“According to notices in Sacramento’s St. Francis parish bulletin, parishioners have been meeting “to create a new direction for strengthening the Catholic community of Lesbian, Gay, Bi-sexual, Transgender, Queer/Questioning parishioners.”
A two-hour meeting is to be held on Saturday afternoon, January 12, from 3:00 pm to 5:00 pm in the St. Francis Parish Center, formerly the church convent. Parishioners wishing more information were advised to call Jan Seaman …”
“Jan Seaman is employed by the Sacramento Gay and Lesbian Center in an executive and professional capacity. She is a retired faculty member of California State University Los Angeles. Her faculty biography on the Cal State website states that her marital status is domestic partner. Her partner’s name is shown as Mary.Marks.Mary Marks is the chair of the St. Francis parish council.”
So who has oversight? The last “Great” soon to be Saint sure didn’t!
Oso Pious
In chess there is the concept of a” bad Bishop”. It is one that is kept from functioning by the constricted position and pawn structure during the course of the chess game. Archbishop Robert Sanchez of Santa Fe, NM, a “bad Bishop” exemplified all the six traits of the national “Character Counts” program except “Responsibility”. As a Bishop, Sanchez was indeed seen as: caring,fair,respectful,trustworthy,and a good citizen. But he was not held responsible for hundreds of recycled pedophile priests who ravished, sodomized and raped their young parishoners during his reign from 1974-1993. When he finally resigned and went into hiding and exile, the victims and their families suffered from the hierarchy that kept themselves in a state of denial of any responsibility. Unless the local people demand accountability from their Bishop “over-seers” it will never happen! Please see the artricle called “Catholicism Inc” by Bill Keller in the 2/17/’13 issue of the New York Times.
Anonymous
A very telling read complete with thought provoking commentary
http://ncronline.org/news/accountability/legion-christs-deception-unearthed-new-documents-indicate-wider-cover#
Summatum est
“Pope Immunity: Vatican Will Protect Benedict From Sexual Abuse Prosecution ”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/17/pope-immunity_n_2708518.html
Joseph D'Hippolito
Besides, doesn’t Canon Law hold bishops responsible? Wuerl in D.C. has refused to implement Canon 915 regarding elected officials and abortion since he took over. If abortion is such a serious issue for the Catholic Church, then why doesn’t Wuerl face discipline, if not outright censure?
The fact of the matter is that the leaders in any organization “have each other’s backs.” That’s true in Washington, the NEA, the UN, Wall Street, various labor unions, etc. The rank-and-file be damned.
Catholic prelates have been used to operating this way for centuries, if not a millenium, at least. They could get away with it because of their political influence and the relative sloth of the printed word. During this electronic age, however, incompetent or malfeasant prelate no longer have anything to hide.
Mary
Joseph, Do some research on the now elderly very well credentialed Charlotte Iserbyte.
This is an excellent article exposing the poltitical ties of the Bishops to educational interests (NEA) in this country.Most of the corrupt you speak of are linked .”The fact of the matter is that the leaders in any organization “have each other’s backs.” That’s true in Washington, the NEA, the UN, Wall Street, various labor unions, etc”
http://www.newswithviews.com/iserbyt/iserbyt114.htm
“Regarding Catholic schools accepting the national Common Core curriculum, I am afraid we will have to understand that the Catholic Bishops are part of it…willingly part of it. I don’t like to say that, but the Bishops are not stupid. They are following directives from the Vatican that is up to its eyeballs in Masonic snakes.”
Joe
It has amazed me for years how the Catholic hierarchy can tell us how to live
moral lives when they, for the most part, are nothing more than amoral
parasites. The hierarchy is about money, power, and control and making sure they
keep it. What little good they do is nothing more than a smokescreen front to
disguise the greater evil they do
TheAltonRoute
Mary,
Interesting that the Legionaries would buy a home owned by Rev. Moon. Moon was a CIA asset. Perhaps Maciel was as well. Maciel was a friend of Bill Casey, former DOI of the CIA. It was mentioned in the recent HBO documentary that Maciel claimed to “pose” as a CIA agent. Maciel and Moon would make up, I presume, the right wing of the CIA as opposed to the left-wing (e.g., the Ford Foundation). The CIA has sponsored cults over the years, no doubt having learned this technique of subversion from its British masters. I wonder how many other prominent Catholic neo-cons in Opus Dei and other organizations are CIA assets.
Mary
I have oft wondered the same Alton. I have a dear friend who grew up in Westchester NY and went to a private academy with Moon’s daughter.We both found it odd that the Legion would purchase the property.
I also read the divorce coverage of Moon’s daughter in law and son who wound up residing in the mansion prior to the Legion purchasing it. The home had a Catholic Chapel inside complete with statues and altar from when the Sisters of the Cenacle owned it I believe.. We thought it odd
too that the Moonies left it intact. Also, saw a television Documentary made by a family whose daughter was in the Moonies and who filmed themselves at the gatehouse of the mansion attempting to gain access to their daughter for deprogramming purposes. They never got in but eventually did have their daughter deprogrammed.
http://www.lohud.com/article/20120502/NEWS02/305010117/Legionaries-Christ-puts-2nd-Westchester-property-up-sale
“Last year, the Legion said it would seek to sell a 97-acre property in New Castle that it bought in 1994 for $3.12 million from the Unification Church.”
I think the property was sold by the Legion to the NY ArchDiocese and is now the a Retreat Center
http://www.olmk.org/directions/index.htm
Other websites cover the Moon and Legion properties in NY. of interest
http://www.lohud.com/article/20111002/NEWS02/110020341/Legionaries-Christ-s-New-Castle-property-sale-after-failed-efforts-seminary-women-s-center
“Hudson Valley Moon Houses”
http://www.hudsonvalleyruins.org/rob/?p=1134
TheAltonRoute
Mary,
Another strange outfit is Christendom College, which espouses bizarre ideas about some sort of a Hispanic Catholic utopia. Its founder, Warren H. Carroll, also worked for the CIA. Yet another example of the shady personalities who took advantage of the chaos after Vatican II. To be honest, most of the new Catholic schools strike me as bizarre. But then again most of the old ones turned sour in the 1960s so what was left? Somehow I get the picture that there were individuals running both sides of the breakdown in the Church.
Anonymous
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/1983/07/their-will-be-done
Oso Pious
I am going to be interviewed by a reporter from New York who also wants to interview the Paracletes in Jemez Springs, NM. Just like the new history of the secrets of the Vietnam War called “Kill Anything That Moves” by Nick Turse, I will answer questions about the secret history of the Paracletes and their program to recycle pedophile priests here in New Mexico. Today I confronted a Vietnam War veteran whose company committed numerous atrocities and he wanted to forget all the torture,rapes,body parts cut off for souvenirs,naphalm and agent orange, etc. LIKEWISE, most of the people involved with the recycled pedophile priests just want to forget that anything ever happened. I will, to the best of my ability and memory, answer any questions about the Paracletes and issues that I witnessed concerning the big cover up in New Mexico. A lot of my testimony has already been written in Jay Nelson’s book “Sons of Perdition”. Please pray for me that I give a true and accurate interview and that the Paracletes will also do the same!
Mary
Oso, prayers and best wishes for an excellent interview!
Alton,when I look hard at the Right , I see the same people that are on the Left which is why I look straight ahead at the Gospels !
Tony de New York
‘for the most part, are nothing more than amoral
parasites. The hierarchy is about money, power, and control and making sure they
keep it.’
What a NON-SENSE!!!
The stupid things thath i have to read.
Mary
Re: Cardinal Mahony and Bishop Gomez
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/inquiries-and-interviews/detail/articolo/los-angeles-mahony-gomez-conclave-22536/
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/gomez-pray-for-cardinal-mahony-has-be-goes-to-rome.html
http://ncronline.org/blogs/all-things-catholic/gomez-mahony-and-sodano-rule
It would appear that the posts by someone stating more of the same applies .
Father Michael Koenig
Mary, I really liked what you said in comment #16 about not looking at the right or the left, but straight ahead. More and more that’s how I feel.
Mary
Tony,
“‘for the most part, are nothing more than amoral
parasites. The hierarchy is about money, power, and control and making sure they
keep it.”
Seems the ?THEY? agree with you!
But I stand accused by Jacob as being “pious” and focusing my Faith on Christ’s Words because at this point I have NO idea who among men from Hierarchy to commoner to trust. This is exactly the way my Grandparents told me it was under the soviet communists .Watching the various News stations tonight ,apparently the citizens ,pundits and broadcasters have the same opinion of the government here.
The Hegellian dialectic rules!
What say you Leon on all the confusion?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/21/pope-retired-amid-gay-bishop-blackmail-inquiry
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2013/0221/breaking21.html
Crowhill
Mr. Podles, I’m curious if you have any reaction to this article.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/21/pope-retired-amid-gay-bishop-blackmail-inquiry
Tony de New York
Mary, mahonny days r counted. He is a has been!