Boston Magazine has an article, “Becoming a Priest at an Unpopular Time.” It provoked various comments, such as this one by John Schuster (who another commentator says is a priest):
The Roman Catholic priesthood is a predominantly closeted gay profession. The previous poster, John, hit the nail on the head. Seminarian Eric will either be shocked or relieved to discover this reality. Three types of people are drawn to the priesthood: idealists, closeted gay men, and predators. Most of the idealists have left because they came to the realization that they built their vocation to the priesthood on a sexual toxic dump, and had little power to change this rich and powerful two-faced culture. That leaves easily extorted closeted gay men having to deal with cunning predators who know how to play the system. And you, good Catholics, end up paying for it all.
This is harsh, but not completely inaccurate. Apparently the proportion of gays in the priesthood is increasing. Some are at peace with celibacy and church teachings, but many are not.
But Schuster leaves out the biggest category: the merely mediocre. The clergy and religious life have provided a way for people who might be assist bank managers or sales clerks to get titles such as Father, Monsignor, Sister, Your Excellency, etc., and receive deference they would never have received if they had pursued a life in the world. They have a guaranteed income for life and never have to worry about insurance, pensions, unemployment, etc.
A friend of mine, who was a religious priest, was in a religious house in Manhattan when the 9/11 attack occurred. He went downtown immediately, but all of his fellow priests stayed in the house and watched TV. One priest was so lazy that he would do nothing, and my friend had to lure him out of the house and change the locks to get rid of him.
Active gays, unhappy gays, predators – they are certainly present, but the underlying problem is mediocrity. The mediocre are happy with their comfortable berths, and want nothing to disturb their repose. Zeal is absent, and they certainly have no desire to cleanse the priesthood of the elements that corrupt it.
Great article! I just met a victim of sexual abuse by 3 pedophile priests. He said the perps gave him a drug to make him “gay” when he was very young and he is still hooked on it. The 3 priests are all listed in Jay Nelson’s book “Sons of Perdition” and they all graduated from Mount Angel Seminary in Oregon and they all are still active in the Santa Fe area. The man in question is considering suicide and I tried to counsel him out of it! Leon,lease continue your research and let the public known what is really going on in the Catholic Priesthood!
“Three types of people are drawn to the priesthood: idealists, closeted gay men, and predators.”
Where r the PROOF?
It seems 2 me that liberals know that their days r counted, they don’t like the idea that ortodoxy is attractive to todays seminarians.
Mediocre. That explains a lot. Years ago, in the Anglican church, the well off families would dump their less than brilliant sons into priesthood if they couldn’t make it in the other learned professions or the armed services. Sad that this is happening in the Catholic church.
Leon, the bishops don’t care about what you say because the bishops don’t want trouble from their underlings. The pope doesn’t care because the pope has bigger fish to fry (centralizing international finance, demanding health care for all, fighting for persecuted Christians…oh, wait on that last one….). The laity, by and large, are too intimidated to act because they’ve been brainwashed by the theologies of “alter Christus” and “successors to the Apostles,” which the professional clergy has manipulated to its great advantage.
One of the priests who was at our church years ago was an idealist. He later went into a traditionalist society of priests and found it to be rotten and, yes, full of gays who were obsessed with dress-up. He later left the RC priesthood. Dedicated priests do exist, but they don’t get anywhere. Manipulators go places in the Church. I suppose such priests always have existed, but nowadays there are so few truly devoted priests to counter these predators. Younger priests’ interest in “tradition” seems to me largely fake. These priests are very dualist and may present a facade of being against abortion, homosexuality, etc. but behind the scenes couldn’t care less about these issues. The Church is becoming more and more a massive pyramid of fakery. At some point the scam will collapse and the Church will come back.
What is people’s take on some bishops’ protest against the HHS mandate? Are these bishops really seriously against what is going on? Or is it some ploy by GOP elements in the Church to push for Romney?
TheAltonRoute, I think the bishops are serious about what’s going on but what’s motivating them is the desire to run Catholic institutions as they see fit — which is haphazardly — as opposed to answering to the government. I’m suspicious because when New York State’s Supreme Court made a similar ruling, the Church did nothing. When the federal government demanded that Catholic Charities offer adoption services to same-sex couples, CC shut down its adoption operation. The bishops’ stance is far more about power than religious freedom — though the Obama Administration has shown that it has no use for religious freedom.
An interview that explains it all…..
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/rebecca-diserio/2012/11/04/forward-boldly-guest-randy-engel
I think there is a certain amount of mediocrity, but I also know of any number of guys who are very smart and talented ( one of our guys is a member of Mensa and two others are qualified engineers). I had a bright looking future in social work (not exactly a money maker but a good, useful and interesting career).
I guess I’d be in the “idealist” category. After coming to a personal relationship with Christ and experiencing the reality and power of God in my life, I felt a great attraction to priesthood. I still haven’t lost the idealism, and hope fellow idealists aren’t so rare as many apparently think.
Joseph, I’m not sure how many Catholics think in terms of “Alter-Christus” and Apostolic Succession. My experience in parishes is that the people definitely give a new pastor the benefit of the doubt and lots of slack, but after a year or so, he has to prove himself. He does that by being there for them and showing himself as dedicated. At least this has been true for me. I believe what people want are priests who know their stuff (Scripture and doctrine), love the Lord and have a solid prayer life and who are kind. It also really helps if a guy can preach well.
St. John Chrysostom thought that most bishops and (I think) priests end up in Hell. He lived in the 4th and 5th centuries when the Church still had a lot of its ancient vitality. Perhaps he was just a pessimist or wrote that at the end of a bad day. But then again, maybe it’s a perenial problem. I seem to remember Pope St. Gregory wrote a generation later “How many priests there are in the world and yet how few real priests there are.”
Father Michael, I like your comments. If all Catholic priests were like you, it would be a wonderful church. It is evident that Jesus, and not “The Church”, is your Lord.
I don’t believe the priesthood is a predominately closeted gay profession. I don’t believe most priests are idealists or predators. I do believe there are a lot of good, kind, and intelligent heterosexual priests. The Church has been dealing with a serious problem concerning a certain number of priests that have crossed the line. Numerous professions are dealing with sexual behavior that is unacceptable.
I am a cradle Catholic and DO NOT believe in the whole celibacy discipline. Stating that -I DO NOT believe celibacy creates homosexuality in a man which it appears so many people do.
I WOULD LIKE to see optional celibacy. Granted, a number of priests would continue with the celibacy discipline, but a number of priests would marry. It would be great if the Church would embrace the many benefits of a married priesthood. So many other denominations do it successfully, and the Church is going to find it works as they continue to bring in already married ministers/priests that choose to become a Roman Catholic priest. Please stop attacking the Church by stating their priests are nothing more than idealists, pedophiles, and predators.
I spent a total of 5 years in graduate theology classes with seminarians, both liberal and conservative, in two different institutions. They were mostly young, but from various nations. The few over-arching characteristics in my interactions both in the classroom and in frequent out-of-class activities were that a) they were not obviously masculine, certainly would not be attractive to the average girl b) a larger than typical number were overtly feminine in speech and demeanor c) a good number seemed simply asexual, not much body hair, no masculine physique. I would say personality-wise, the majority were not that smart (this fact often pulled down the quality of the courses I took), they were not verbal, interactive to any degree, nor were they willing to carry on debates. Overall they reminded me of the kids in high school and college who were either nerds or just sat in the corner with other beta males. I don’t think we have access to the brightest or most normalized men sexually because we are not allowing married priests. Seminary can’t but reinforce all these negative traits. The few masculine seminarians I knew had to prove it, and were all about being heroic leaders. A strange sad time.
If the Church did allow a married priesthood (something I could be persuaded to support), would it be able to provide a living wage with benefits to a married priest with wife and children? I ask, because in my parish an underwhelming one-third of registered families place envelopes in the Sunday collection basket.
Reid, you hit the nail on the head. Among Christians, Catholics certainly are not the best at tithing. Though I have found they’re generous in giving to specific causes, fundraiders and charities. To support the priests’ wife and kids would be a huge adjustment for Latin Rite parisioners.
I found the same as cm with respect to many of seminarians of the 80’s and 90’s. The ones we are getting now are generally more masculine. Just recently a seminary prof commented on this to me.
i just attended a party with a large group of seminarians – it could have been gay pride day. There was not one hetero in the entire group.
CM, would you say your diocese is “liberal” or more on the “conservative” end? I’m not crazy about using the terms, but they have some value.
Both “sides” appear to attract gay and/or feminine candidates, though neo-conservatives in the Church seem convinced the liberals draw and include more. I’m not so sure. The most masculine priests I’ve known have been mildly liberal ( they accept the Church’s dogmas but are easy on certain disciplinary matters and human weakness), or only moderately conservative. One who prayed an hour in front of the Blessed Sacrament every day and became one of our “golden boys” really drew people, especially young men. But he ended up leaving to marry. We’ve had a few like that.
This is the supposed “JPII Generation,” right?
The diocese where the party was held is conservative. The sense of belonging and identity support that seminaries provide is intoxicating to immature guys who really haven’t separated from their mothers: 3 hots and a cot. A masculine guy is not going to suffer the martyrdom of being told what to do every minute of the day and being closeted in a hot house with other men 24/7. But, that is exactly what bishops want – men they can control who smile and say yes.
Fr Michael,
re: Married Priests
One of our pastors in the Byzantine Catholic Church we attended was a married Orthodox priest who came into the Catholic Church.He raised his children in the rectories and his wife had an outside job.Eventually they purchased their own home.
It can be done since the rectory frees one up from a mortgage payment. After years of hell in the fires of a burning conscience knowing the Diocese closeted pederasts and sodomites whom he had to house with on the required priestly retreats where they felt ” free to be” with each other he finally returned to the Orthodox.
Despite frequent meetings with the Bishops he finally realized that they knew and accepted the behaviours with a wink and a nod towards public discretion as the preferred priority.
No less than five young men committed suicide due to the abuse suffered under one of our pastors who himself perished from AIDS!
I would have admit that out of six to eight pastors I recall only the married Orthodox priest
exemplified his priestly duties.
There were several others ,two to be exact, who served us briefly and were good priests ,but both were broken souls who suffered from alcoholism.
The rest could be best described simply as non Believers given their heterodox homilies, behaviours and opinions.
“A masculine guy is not going to suffer the martyrdom of being told what to do every minute of the day and being closeted in a hot house with other men 24/7.” What are we to make of the military and the men it has traditionally attracted (females in any large number being a recent innovation)?
Masculine cultures, movements and groups have often thrived on male exclusivity and stern discipline and regimentation; from hunter-gatherers, to ancient warriors to medieval knights to modern black (and brown) shirts to sports teams. “Just us guys!”
I don’t think a regimented/authoritarian all male grouping is the key or give away element. There’s something else…I suspect the expectation to be unmarried and sexually inactive (with women certainly) attracts the sexually unhealthy. After all, soldiers always had leave-time, knights had their “fair damsls” and jocks have lots of female “fans”.
“…that is exactly what bishops want – men they can control who smile and say yes.”
And that, right there, is the reason why Catholicism is going to Hell. Bishops revere their own power over fidelity to the Triune God. It’s been that way for centuries, though the “neo-conservatives” want to deny that for all they’re worth. It reflects dividing the faithful into castes and classes, something Jesus never did. Divide and conquer, as they say.
Leon, since this is Thanksgiving weekend, I want to say how thankful I am for this site. It’s one of the few places people can talk about the Catholic Church’s honestly without being insulted by the self-appointed gatekeepers of orthodoxy.
I second Joseph.
Thanks Leon for bringing up subjects that mainstream Catholic media don’t mention.
Though contributers come with many different perspectives, I generally have found a great deal of respect given by and to each and all.
cm,
I agree wholeheartedly, it is a very sad and strange time to be alive. Moreover, it is a frightening time to have raised children in. I have a very Traditional Catholic friend who worked for the Diocese for decades. now in her seventies and ill ,she has not gone to Mass or the Sacraments for several years.
Recently hopitalized she did not even acknowledge she was Catholic to the Extraordinary Minister who popped his head in her room to ask. But she did tell another priest who appeared and asked that same question that she ,”Used to be Catholic.” He was curious and came over to her bedside to chat. She confided to him everything she saw ,heard and experienced that made her believe the priests were not real anymore. His reply was that she did not leave the her religion but that the Heirarchy had abandoned it. So go figure.
Thanks for your comments Mary. I always find them worthwhile and thought provoking. As you may remember, my Irish-Dutch family is hooked up to Greeks by marriage and we’re all close. The Greek relations are practising Orthodox and I’ve had the opportunity of attending their Church and meeting their priests (married). I have to say, I’ve been impressed.
Father Michael, what impressed you, specifically? I’m not being snarky, just curious.
Fr,
I do not know the Greeks as well as I have known the Orthodox Slavs , but I have been extremely impressed with the families of the priests and the wonderful example they put forth towards their priests as husband , father, grandfather and father in law and vice versa. The priest’s ‘queen” (wife) refers to her husband as “Father” amongst the community as do his adult children .
As a Catholic in the Byzantine Catholic Rites, this was an enlightening situation to witness initiallysince I was raised as a Roman Catholic.
I have heard the arguments by the RC against
married priests .Not enough time for the community , support of the priest’s family etc.Usually I say nothing because we have found quite the opposite to be true and the immediate perception is that one must be liberal or progessive to suggest and defend the notion.But again , quite the opposite is true . Most importantly the priest must be of good character and well educated as is stated in Scripture.
The example of his own family life can teach the Gospel more than words to men women and children in the Church community.
I would much prefer to have a married priest as a Pastor than a Lay person conducting a Sunday Prayer service , distributing the PreSanctified
Eucharist ,as is being suggested to fill the gap of priest shortages.
“This is harsh, but not completely inaccurate. Apparently the proportion of gays in the priesthood is increasing. Some are at peace with celibacy and church teachings, but many are not.”
Leon, I viewed this BBC film several nights ago. The priest is easily written off as an arch liberal going against Church teaching if you merely read his articles. . I was left with a profound sadness not only for the Church and his parish but also for him. He is a lost soul, a victim of abuse ,and a victim of the confusion that did result from Vatican Two.
Clerical pedophile victims hopefully are compensated and go through therapy outside the Church but, I never really thought about victims who become priests themselves and the deep seeded confusion they themselves endure and unwittingly spread to the laity.Please view.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uO4BHcY7PkQ#!
Pedophile Priest Alert! The Legionaires of Christ of Father Maciel are sending their members into New Mexico and Arizona. I confronted one who was grooming my students and he claimed to be from Mexico and spoke perfect Spanish. In fact he was from Naples, Italy and later Texas. He is now trying to leave his Order and become a priest for the Archdiocese of Phoenix. Our poor New Mexico, so far from God and so close to you know what, continues to be a major dumping ground for these sons of perdition.
Joseph, I was impressed by the piety , friendliness and gooodness of these priests. They had a certain “gravitas” mixed with warmth. They were known for having happy marriages and family life and this was a terrific witness to their people.
Like Catholicism, Orthodoxy can suffer from its having been the cultural religion of many countries and thus having many members who practice “more out of inertia than conviction” (wonderful image from Ralph Martin). However, when they are “convicted” and their faith becomes personal, the Orthodox shine. Many gave powerful witness during the long winter of Communism.
There is among these Christians the tender, personal relationship with Jesus characteristic of many Evangelicals, combined with a beautiful liturgical life and deep theology that are rooted in the ancient Church. They are living museums of Christian antiquity. Perhaps this is true especially of the Oriental Orthodox (Syrian and Aramaic traditions) who never were officially established as state religions in any country or time.
PS
Save for my belief that RCs are correct in their understanding of the role of the Pope as Peter’s successor, I’d be Eastern Orthodox. I’m not sure they’ve have me as a priest however, given that I can’t sing worth a dime!
Fr,
I wish you would purchase the Bible our priest encouraged us all to read. There is nothing anti RC Catholic within it’s pages .It explains the Orthodox position beautifully from the ancient Christian point of view using the commentaries from the Early Church Fathers to explain the Biblical passages.
http://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Study-Bible-Ancient-Christianity/dp/0718003594
The Pope is viewed as the First Among Many and indeed that is how the Papacy seems to see it’s role much to the ire of Tradionalists who want the Pope to crackdown more on the other Bishops in the world. I must say I would like the Vatican to clean house too, especially the RC Diocese wherein I live.
Years ago I made an impromptu stop at a Church for confession late one Saturday evening. i was distraught over recent events involving the Legion of Christ and Regnum Christi.No nothing had been in print at that time ,but personally I knew of scandalous events concerning clerics and cult like behaviours directed at and coming from families within the local homeschooling groups. The priest happened to be Polish and whispered to me I was correct and that the Pope had repeatedly warned the Bishops about dealing with pederast clerics and the Legion. The next day I was told by a parishioner at that Church that same priest unexpectedly flew to Rome that very night and that he was a close friend to the Pope who traveleed to various American Diocese and reported back to the Vatican.
My own opinion is that the RC Bishops themselves consider the Pope the first among many and for decades have ruled almost autonomously thier own Sees only coming together to agree as a national body.
PS a good voice is not required , only a sincere heart.
My thought is that the way everything is unfolding ,the Catholic Church will someday leave politics behind , be a poorer Church, and focus more on spirituality instead of the politics of the world . I am hoping that once again it will be the local Church elders that unseat clerics who are not towing the line of Christ and His Church.
Apparently the present Pope agrees
Pope predicts man’s – and Church’s – future
amid crisis of faith
http://www.ignatius.com/pressrelease/faithandthefuturepresskitbundle.pdf
Fr Michael, I should stress yet again to the post above that I am NOT attempting to convert anyone to Orthodoxy.
During the decades we spent in our little Byzantine catholic mission church we experienced the community and worship akin to the Early Church ( until the Bishop made us endure pederasts and heterodox perverts of every type) Prior to this the Pastorship of two good priests, we had a bi ritual RC Catholic priest in his nineties fill in. During the Divine Liturgy he wept. not because we were horrible singers, which we indeed were, but because as he explained later, we sang our responses with such fervour and devotion he knew they reached heaven. The small community was eager also to devote time and talent besides our regular donations. The Gospels and homilies by the way, were based on the Orthodox Scripture texts and the meanings were from the Early Church Fathers. We complained in writing to the Bishop after a priest of dubious Ordination was assigned to us. His homilies denied the Real Presence ,he shortened the Liturgy to suit himself and cancelled Sunday Liturgy when he had better things to do. .The Bishop came and chastised us and sold our church to Korean evangelicals.
I know what it is to be part of a real Christian Orthodox Catholic Community and pray I will live to see and be part of it again.
Thanks for the recommendation Mary. I’ve ordered the Bible. I already have the Orthodox Study New Testament but didn’t have the entire O. S. Bible.
I think you’re right that the RC Church will find itself reduced and stripped of power and prestige. The advent of persecution in the western world (which has begun and is rapidly picking up speed) will also help purify the Church.
There are so many things going on in the Catholic Church it’s hard to keep up. I think it’s time for a Vatican III. I find it a form of hypocrisy when men from the outside are being ordained in the RCC and they won’t allow their current priests to marry. I feel a married priesthood would strengthen the Church. The Catholic Church is a wealthy organization and could support a married priest, especially if he had a working wife. After all, they Church has brought in married men to serve as priests and they have the money to pay them. Plus, the Church is finding that married priests can do the job. I don’t believe it always attracts the sexually unhealthy.
Just because a man is called to the priesthood doesn’t mean he is called to celibacy, but the strict rules of the Church require celibacy to be ordained. This thinking has got to go. When you consider it is young men (usually) going into the priesthood it is easy to think they can always follow the discipline of celibacy. People change as they grown and experience life. Priorities can shift. The Pope just can’t get his head wrapped around this and that is a lot of the problem. I would venture to say if the celibacy discipline was lifted most priests would remain status quo, but for those who would choose to marry – how liberating!