Tanya Luhrmann wrote When God Talks Back: Understanding the American Evangelical Relationship With God.
She has a column in today’s NYT, “When God is Your Therapist.”
IT had never occurred to me to think of God as a therapist when I began to spend time, 10 years ago, at an evangelical church in Chicago. Like many secular observers, I was interested in the fact that people like me seemed to experience reality in a fundamentally different manner. I soon came to realize that one of the most important features of these churches is that they offer a powerful way to deal with anxiety and distress, not because of what people believe but because of what they do when they pray.
One way to see this is that the books teaching someone how to pray read a lot like cognitive behavior therapy manuals. For instance, the Rev. Rick Warren’s “The Purpose Driven Life,” one of the best-selling books of all time, teaches you to identify your self-critical, self-demeaning thoughts, to interrupt them and recognize them as mistaken, and to replace them with different thoughts. Cognitive-behavioral therapists often ask their patients to write down the critical, debilitating thoughts that make their lives so difficult, and to practice using different ones. That is more or less what Warren invites readers to do. He spells out thoughts he thinks his readers have but don’t want, and then asks them to consider themselves from God’s point of view: not as the inadequate people they feel themselves to be, but as loved, as relevant and as having purpose.
Does it work? In my own research, the more people affirmed, “I feel God’s love for me, directly,” the less stressed and lonely they were and the fewer psychiatric symptoms they reported.
More strikingly, I saw that the church implicitly invited people to treat God like an actual therapist. In many evangelical churches, prayer is understood as a back-and-forth conversation with God — a daydream in which you talk with a wise, good, fatherly friend. Indeed, when congregants talk about their relationship with God, they often sound as if they think of God as some benign, complacent therapist who will listen to their concerns and help them to handle them.
I am not sure how it fits into the mainstream of Christian spirituality, but it does not sound bizarre or harmful to try to talk to God and listen for His response (always remembering that we might mistake another voice for His, and even when He speaks we hear Him filtered through our receptors).
God certainly wishes to comfort the distressed, families whose father had died, parents who have lost a child.
I saw the same thing at another church, where a young couple lost a child in a late miscarriage. Some months later I spent several hours with them. Clearly numbed, they told me they did not understand why God had allowed the child to die. But they never gave a theological explanation for what happened. They blamed neither their own wickedness nor demons. Instead, they talked about how important it was to know that God had stood by their side. The husband quoted from memory a passage in the Gospel of John, where many followers abandon Jesus because his teachings don’t make sense to them. Jesus says sadly to his disciples, “You do not want to leave, too, do you?” and Peter responds, “Lord, to whom shall we go?”
This sounds mature to me.
Luhrmann doesn’t discuss what kind of response people get when they talk to God about cheating on their spouses or stealing from their employers. If God is still benign and complacent I would have doubts about this approach to Him.
Luhrmann also claims that
This approach to the age-old problem of theodicy is not really available to mainstream Protestants and Catholics, who do not imagine a God so intimate, so loving, so much like a person. That may help to explain why it is evangelical Christianity that has grown so much in the last 40 years.
“so much like a person” – but almost all Christians believe in a personal God, whom they know in Jesus Christ. Although there are problems with the Catholic devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, the relationship is certainly personal. And Lutherans have a strong personal relationship to Jesus, “Jesu, meine Freude.”
I am not sure that Luhrmann is right, or perhaps what evangelicals mean by a “personal” relationship with God is something completely different from what other Protestants and Catholics mean.
Mary
Leon ,
It has been my experience that Catholics have not always been encouraged to read the Scriptures privately. When they listen to a homily in Church on a certain reading ,more often than not they miss the entire contextual meaning because the Bible has not been read and studied in it’s entirety.
There are even those priests who purchase prepackaged homilies and have little or no expertise themselves on the Scriptures.
I dealt with an Evangelical home school state leader who, after we conversed at length, realized that Catholicism is Scripturally based but that we have varying differences in interpretation. Like that of the Transubstantiation. He had no problem including Catholic home schooling families in the state group Later, to my surprise, I was informed by a large Catholic home school curriculum provider in VA that ours was the only state where the Christian religious homeschool groups were all united and Catholics were included at that time .They asked how I accomplished it.
I recommend this Orthodox Bible here for several reasons .Mainly because the commentaries came from the Early Church Fathers who are considered the same by both Orthodox and Catholic .
http://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Study-Bible-Ancient-Christianity/dp/0718003594
it has been stated that the Bible is a living document that is evolving .
The Scripture itself says in Hebrews that God is the same today as He was yesterday and forever and in Malachi,”For I am the Lord, I do not change.”
Since we do not have a parish anymore following the disasterous pastorship of a series of immoral and questionably Ordained priests, several of our parish families found comfort and a deepening Faith reading this Bible in our homes using this text recommended by two Eastern Rite priests whose parishes are too far away to travel to.
God makes Himself available to us as the Living Word and in the Eucharist.
He has not evolved and changed with time no matter if the politically oriented would like to ditch the interpretations and explanations of the Early Church Fathers as antiquated and misunderstood.
Father Michael Koenig
Thanks again Mary for recommending that Bible to me. It’s excellent. I gave an Orthodox Study New Testament to a University student who is studying at an Evangelical university.
I think the problem with forms of Christianity (like Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Lutheranism, etc.)that have been official and/or cultural religions in this or that country and for certain nationalities, etc., is that their adherents are believers out of a kind of inertia rather than deep conviction.
Evangelicalism traces back in part to the early “Believers’ Churches” of the Reformation (the Anabaptists who baptized and accepted as members only those who made a decision to follow Christ), as well as renewal movements in mailine churches calling for committed personal faith (the Moravians in the Lutheran community, the early Methodists in the Anglican, etc.) Thus they are premised on the idea that members should have made a conscious “decision for Christ.”
I agree that prayerfully reading Scripture, adhering to the doctrinal consensus of Christians during the first centuries,, and receiving the sacraments, are absolutely key. Human pastors will come and go, some good, others bad. But these three things will survive among God’s people forever.
Mary
Here is the story of an Eastern Rite Catholic Diocese recorded in com boxes to a News article. The Diocese extends from ME to FL and West to Pittsburgh. Members of various parishes from different states express frustration, anger, hope and disgust as the Diocese was dessimated by corrupt clerics. Few were pedophiles. The majority of the complaints were about hx priests who squandered monies and or were discovered on same sex websites soliciting and filming young men . Frustrated parishioners saw there churches close and sold .
Some decent priests left and or retired and suggested their friends turn to God for comfort though prayer and Scripture.
http://www.topix.com/forum/city/commack-ny/T41NOKSGVBCGV22QV
TheAltonRoute
Our ruling oligarchs don’t want us to know principles. Therefore, what is right and wrong “evolves” over time based on the determinations of the high priests of liberalism. Usury, sodomy and other vices are pretty much sacraments to these high priests.
Mary
Alton, There are a few who do want us to know the basic right thinking common sense principles that Christianity is based on . These are the priest’s and laity who have been marginalized not the LGBT crowd as the politically progressivists would have us believe.The 1800 plus posts to the News article posted above demonstrate this .
The Byzantine Catholics in the Diocese that connected and posted above relate a broad spectrum of emotions and understanding behind their church closings .Common to the thread is the Bishop as financial CEO , the activities of the hx clergy and the lack of real concern for the laity.one woman relates how her friend who worked cleaning and cooking in a rectory for years. She became concerned when seeing the priest was filming scantily clad.parish boys with male porn stars in pseudo wrestling poses in the church basement. The priest admonished her from the pulpit and her friend relates that the old woman lost her Faith. In the last posts we read other parishoners searching to connect with parents whose sons were also filmed. Someone posts same priest is now living with a man he filmed out west. links to the website and pics were posted but can probably only be found on the internet Wayback Machine.Priests who complained to the Bishop about the hx clergy died, left or retired.Many parishoners joined the Orthodox.
Mary
There is an internet debate going on right now in the blogosphere between and about two Catholic speakers concerning LGBT therapy etc.
http://abbey-roads.blogspot.com/2013/04/another-take-on-selmys-versus-voris.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMfzIk8l8tE
http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2013/04/how-to-speak-about-homosexuality
I watched her presentation online EWTN’s Life on the Rock and thought it was the same old technique used on the drug addicts that I saw in my Clinicals.
The ex addict “wittnessing about their rehabilitation” which of course translates into the mind of the listener that they too can make a living off their past addiction by rehabing and becoming a speaker on the same.
It rarely convinced the druggies to change and I doubt if this technique will bring many around to a change in what she terms the “LGBTQ”community either.
I also spoke with a sexual identity confused young man who complained to me about “Courage”. He said the group encounter sessions effectively made,” the other people’s shared perverse
obsessions his own .” He said,” he could just not stop thinking about them.”
He was later advised by a priest to go to a Catholic Charities Psychiatrist .He told me
she ,” Put him on paxil and told him to pursue his sexual desires.”
IMHO therapy of any kind does not work unless one desires deep inside self to change and commits to avoid the near occasion of the obsession .
Joseph D'Hippolito
God is far, far more than a therapist. He is a loving, compassionate Father who understands the problems, anxieties and burdens of His adopted sons and daughters far, far better than anyone realizes. How else could His Son say, “Come to Me, all you who are burdened and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest”? How else could Scripture say that God will not “break the bruised reed nor quench the smoldering wick”?
Unfortunately, most churches have ignored those divine characteristics (as well as God’s righteousness and holiness) to pursue their own theological and pseudo-intellectual agendas. As a veteran of a liturgical church, I can tell you that neither liturgy nor sacraments (despite the protestations of the apologists) necessarily brings man closer to God, or vice versa. They can, however, give the clerical caste an inordinate sense of importance — which has become all too familiar and clear when it comes to Catholicism.
Evangelical churches, on the other hand, can obscure God’s nature through the cults of personality surrounding many popular preachers, the over-emphasis on church growth for its own sake, and excessive attempts to popularize the Gospel.
Sometimes, one has to get away from the church “scene” to find God.
TheAltonRoute
Seems to me that a good course of action would be for someone involved in homosexuality or some other risky sexual behavior to discover the origins of his/her behavior (e.g., sexual abuse or something else)…as well as staying clear of the “gay community.”
Homosexuality appears to be another vice being pushed in order to make people more irrational. There’s no way that Stonewall and gay liberation just erupted on their own. I would assume the Rockefeller and Ford Foundations funded gay liberation, as part of the paradigm shift of the 1960s. The promotion of vice by the “Establishment” has a long history, going back to the Brahmins and their involvement in dope-running. A nation of perverts and junkies is easier to control than a nation composed of people who are educated and rational. Homosexuals are big into drugs, porn and exotic sex tourism. The potential for profits is enormous.
Anonymous
Is Michael Voris reading this blog?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaZbaK7ZoUU
Mary
“Evangelical churches, on the other hand, can obscure God’s nature through the cults of personality surrounding many popular preachers, the over-emphasis on church growth for its own sake, and excessive attempts to popularize the Gospel.”
Joseph ,isn’t that what we have seen with the “New Evangelization” that is not so new at all?
EWTN comes to mind with the fall of so many “rock star priests”. Corapi ,Eutenauer, Groeshel, Ken Roberts to name a few. along with the meteoric rise of the convert clique of Protestant ministers who want to teach us all how to be real Catholics.Scott Hahn and his lectures on the female Holy Spirit comes to mind.
http://www.catholicintl.com/index.php/catholic/scandals/1034-ewtn-stuck-with-a-crop-of-wayward-priests-and-prelates
“In 2007, Father Francis Mary Stone, the immensely popular host of EWTN’s crass and often morally offensive, rock-and-roll-themed youth show, “Life on the Rock” (discussed extensively in Chapter 15 of my book), left the network in disgrace and then the priesthood after announcing his love affair with a widow. When last seen on the Internet, he was peddling a nutrition drink called Zrii under the name Dave Stone, shamelessly using the slogan “living life on the rock.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQx2zScTsOk
Augusta Wynn
I keep forgetting where in the teachings of Our Lord we find his remarks condemning homosexuality.
Considering that it is becoming common knowledge that the clerical priesthood is populated by closeted gay priests, and since homosexual clergy have been around only forever, and even EO Wilson believes that there may be an “altruistic gene” around gayness, and all we are talking about here is who floats your boat, why do we care? Does anyone really believe that the Divine thinks gays should live like straights? And that Our Lord would be concerned with such nonsense?
I do no intend offense. I truly don’t understand.
AW
TheAltonRoute
Mary,
I wonder whether the EWTN personalities are connected to the Council for National Policy. I have read of CNP connections to Franciscan University in Steubenville.
Is it just me or does Raymond Arroyo make you uncomfortable? When he interviews Bob Sirico, I get a little uneasy.
Anonymous
God as Therapist?
The “Unity Project” of the New World Religion has already been underway. Have’nt you noticed all the ‘therapists’ who are sent into every mass casualty situation?
Global Governance and the “New World Order Religion”
The Role of the Baha’i. In the Wake of the Newtown School Massacre
“If this is indeed the basis of a global religion, before which all other beliefs and denominations must yield, there are a number of obvious concerns. For example, how does one define national or economic “prejudice”? Will one’s economic wherewithal be contingent upon converting to a new, state-mandated religion/spirituality? And along these lines, if science and religion are conflated, what entities will help determine the moral parameters of the many scientific pursuits that run counter to and endanger life on earth? Under such a scheme will psychiatrists and bioethicists make up a new clergy? Many of the Bahá’í tenets would fit well in a technocratic order where the state is the foremost authority.”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/global-governance-and-the-new-world-order-religion/5331183
TheAltonRoute
According to this author, the British created Bahai as a cult to run their empire: http://bahaism.blogspot.com/2012/02/posted-by-hermano-maximiliano-from.html
Mary
AW..I just read the Epistle of St Jude this morning. It is short and right before the Apocalypse .Take a look. According to Jude, Jesus’ cousin ,God certainly does become provoked.
Alton I noted a real change take place some years ago with Raymond Arroyo. Other’s told me they observed the same. He seemed normal and then one day I turned it on and he almost looked like he was in some kind of giggly ecstatic state.
I cannot explain it but I do know he read the Sirico Brief because right after it made the rounds on the internet ,he introduced Sirico as his friend and then smirked at him and introduced him as , “My good friend and cohost Fr Robert Sirico … a Prodigal Son of sorts.”
I wanted to throw my shoe at the screen because I had also watched this ‘non’ economic expert speak about Free Trade with China and how the Chinese would be free to evangelize with money in their pockets and Americans would have access to cheaper goods!
Sirico missed the word “Communist”totally!
Several years later Arroyo had a Chinese Catholic on who said that the foriegn corporations over there are really slave labor prisons and that they are full of children and Catholics sentenced to prison because they refuse to recognize the Patriotic Communist catholic church . I wrote to Arroyo because his guest Harry Wu, who spent years in these labor camps as a prisoner himself, said he wondered why ,”….Americans do not realize this.Especially Catholics!”
I pointed out to Arroyo that they do not realize this because of Sirico who keeps promoting on his show , unrestricted free trade with Communist China as if it was a Catholic Doctrine!
Arroyo wrote back saying how “fair” his show was because it presented both sides!
Then all of a sudden Sirico’s “economic” Acton Think Tank toned down the wonderful unrestricted Free Trade with China rhetoric and he began to somewhat begrudgingly mention human rights.
http://wfpl.org/post/former-chinese-political-prisoner-harry-wu-us-companies-too-cozy-
communist-china
http://www.wnd.com/2001/04/8721/
Arroyo’s office is in the Opus Dei owned Catholic Communications bldg in DC. Look it up.
Mary
Sorry the entire link was not hyped above
http://wfpl.org/post/former-chinese-political-prisoner-harry-wu-us-companies-too-cozy-communist-china
Mary
Augusta ,there are references to Scriptural quotes in this article that you might find of interest.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles2/ShenoudaHomosexuality.php
“In his epistle, St. Jude writes, ‘as Sodom and Gomarrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.’ And in his first epistle to St. Timothy, St. Paul reminds, ‘knowing this: that the law is not make for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites.’ St. Paul includes this word ‘sodomites’ or homosexuals among the murderers, among the lawless, among the ungodly. This sin then was condemned in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. So can we disobey God in order to please some sinful persons? Is it not better to correct them.”
Mary
I do not see how Free Trade with China has resulted in either the Democracy or religious freedom Sirico touts. what i do see is that starting with the furniture manufacturing in this country and then on to clothing ,housewares, poisoned toys and dry wall Communist China has successfully aided in destroying industries that once thrived in America. Black market goods abound in communist countries .They seel back marketed prescription drugs there and their own people are cluless as to whether they are getting the read medication or not.
” Fr” Sirico has helped to foist these policies on the American public as a way of opening the doors to religious freedom there. Has he succeeded? Ask the builders who have been sued and have had to tear down whole developments of residential homes built with Chinese wall board.
Harry Wu explained that we are complicit and I thank another wanna be “rock star” priest who joined the EWTN infamous line up and apparently went the way of Baal!
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/engel/120412
http://www.riskworldwide.com/2011/06/why-you-should-be-concerned-about-chinese-drywall/
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CREC-1997-06-12/html/CREC-1997-06-12-pt1-PgE1212-2.htm
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/21/opinion/la-oe-navarro-trade-china-20110621
Augusta Wynn
Thank you, Mary, for the references. I continue to believe that what God has joined together, etc. and that men of roman collars in high positions, who have only recently learned that closeted sexual freaks molesting children are not doing the work of The Lord, cannot speak to this issue with any clarity.
Our Lord did not spend his time on earth talking about sex or the sins of the flesh. This we know to be true. It is a hopeful and beautiful thing when two people want to commit for life. It is impossible for this Catholic to believe that the men of the Vatican- of this or previous generations- know anything at all about love between two people, straight or gay. And that the Creator of all did not make some of us the “right” way.
AW
TheAltonRoute
I’ve read that Sirico and his foundation are backed by wealthy Calvinist families from Michigan.
The label communist is meaningless, really. The titans of finance and descendants of the dope-traders of the Northeast don’t care whether a government is communist, fascist, capitalist, theocratic, etc. What matters is cheap labor and a supply of cheap goods to be used to wage warfare on the economies of enemy states. The oligarchs of the Anglo/American/Dutch finance empire can weave seamlessly between anti-communism and communism. They don’t care whether the huge portrait on the wall inside the factory is of Chairman Mao or some religious zealot.
Opus Dei and the Legionaries must be part of the Catholic (right) wing of this empire.
TheAltonRoute
Mary,
Sirico’s no priest but rather a paid apologist for the British system of free-trade. No wonder he was running slave auctions. Bob Sirico could’ve been a nabob for the East India Company. This guy is sick.
Mary
Augusta,
It is our souls that were made in His image and Likeness and we have the gift of a Free Will to choose to know love and serve Him or not.
Mary
Alton , I agree that money is the root of all evil ,no matter by which name of government or religion you wish to call it.