An occasion of many venial sins
Over at Mark Shea, there is a heated discussion of whether lying is ever not sinful. We should never deliberately commit any sin, venial or mortal.
The Catholic Catechism seems to say that all lies are sins:
By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others.
But is that the ONLY purpose of speech? Is it an intrinsic part of all speech? Cardinal Schönborn wrote the catechism; he is a Dominican and a Thomist, and he certainly presents Aquinas’s position here.
But is that really the only purpose of speech? If you tell an ugly and deformed person, “You are very beautiful,” in Aquinas’s view would be sinful and should never be done, even if the purpose were to dissuade the poor person not to commit suicide in despair.
I suspect that Aquinas had Asperger’s Syndrome, and his view of the purpose of speech is that which Aspergers and autistic people have.
Speech had many purposes, and “communicating known truth” is only one of them, and is not an intrinsic part of every statement.
The Greek Fathers had a very lax attitude to lying, which led to a lot of Anglo-Saxon sniffing by their English translators. God deceived Satan into killing Christ, according to one school of theology.
BTW, the bishops and the Vatican certainly do not follow the Catechism. They lie frequently, copiously, and by habit.
‘the bishops and the Vatican certainly do not follow the Catechism. They lie frequently, copiously, and by habit.’
LOL!!!
Ronald Knox, on the questions of whether Catholics are more prone than Protestants to tell lies, says: “I can’t say I have ever noticed any difference between Catholics and other (well-intentioned) people in this matter…. St. Thomas taught the essence of a lie was its being a sin agains reason (not necessarily in its taking the other chap in), and therefore all sorts of ingenious ways were devised for making your statement correspond with the truth and yet not giving away the secret you were bound to keep… In real life I don’t think Catholics ever equivocate, because it demands such a confounded lot of ingenuity if you are to do it on the spur of the moment. They just lie, as Protestants do, when telling the truth would have disastrous consequences; school boys and politicians, of course, especially, and I don’t suppose God holds it against them much” (“Off the Record,” 146-47).
Is lying a sin ? A mortal or venial debate amongst “Catholics”?
Didn’t Jesus say,” Satan was a liar from the beginning .” ?
“BTW, the bishops and the Vatican certainly do not follow the Catechism. They lie frequently, copiously, and by habit.”
Could say you can identify them by the company they keep. Better not to say anything.
And then there is the issue of mental reservation which bishops use to protect priests. Whether they discussed their sins to the bishops under the seal of confession or not, I believe hierarchs have been encouraged officially to do whatever is necessary never to harm the Church which has been considered a perfect society outside the law, and obviously, outside any ethical constrictions getting in the way of unchecked power. Francis has a lot to fix,…that can’t be unfixed when the next hierarch gets in…without women in position of authority the chances are slim to none anything will stick.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10195b.htm
Speaking of lies, this might be of interest
“I stand corrected .Not all of the Legion supporters were priests. However they ALL were part of the Legion of Christ in some way.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/irish-priest-faces-sex-abuse-charges-in-chilean-court-29532123.html
“About 50 members of the Legion of Christ and people connected to Colegio Cumbres arrived at court yesterday to show their support for Fr O’Reilly. ”
At the same time in reporting the ‘facts” we note that lies are committed by reframing adjectives to describe the personality and activities of the Legion’s Founder. Here on a Legion Regnum Christi site we have Maciel desribed as a “broken” man.
“Broken” because he was exposed as a fraudulant cleric who sodomized boys in his seminary from the very beginning?
“Broken” because he was a ,morphine addict who controlled members of the Hierarchy with expensive gifts and money?
“Broken”because even his own illigitimate children from his mistresses came forward to say he victimized them through pedophilia?
http://pewsandcassocks.com/2013/07/20/thank-you-for-live-regnumchristi-org/
Indeed it is a “MYSTERY” how an Order and it’s Apostolate founded by a liar and hypocrit can remake their story to be one of continued holiness despite the continued scandals of abuse involving their own!”
Mark Shea basically argues that you should tell the Nazi that you’re hiding a priest, regardless of the consequences. Not only is that narcissistic but betraying the trust somebody else had in you. How is that better than telling a white lie?
People like Shea think and live in a world that doesn’t exist. In that world, all moral decisions are black and white. Consequences of those decisions must never be contemplated, whether those consequences affect oneself or others. Shea is advocating a template for ethical paralysis.
Besides, Shea has no credibility on the issue of lying. He regularly distorts opposing arguments, engages in personal smears, constructs rhetorical straw men and feigns victimization when called on his arguments. I speak from more than a decade of personal experience with the man.
Mark Shea’s very life is a lie to his “Catholic” witness. Anybody who believes him on anything flushes his mind down the toilet.
Joseph , I totally agree.
Leon,
Apparent in the News today, much of the world views our rationale for military intervention in Syria as being based on lies . As a scholar, I would appreciate your opinion on this documentary.
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/all-wars-are-bankers-wars/
I am traveling but I will comment later. I think the bombing of Syria is illegal and futile.
It’s not about “bankers”, but rather the reactionary pagan imperialism of the past vs the modern state. Pagan globalists are trying to destroy nation-states dedicated to the common good. The epitome of this pagan insanity is found especially on Wall Street and in the City. The globalists of the old American-British Empire and likeminded fellows across the globe are trying to get the United States, Russia and China to destroy each other. Syria is the starting point for this WWIII scenario.
Alton, This old movie might be interesting to you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk93JIkolAU
Alton ……and remember the “money changers” come in all race ,gender and job title.
Including some Vatican posts.
Lies?
Absolutely no one is saying that the Egyptians, the Syrians and yes, even the Libyans, all found themselves watching their bank accounts dwindle and lacking jobs along with the the rest of the world!
Watch the Frontline”s excellent series on Money Power and Wall Street
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/money-power-wall-street/
Alton, The “pagan globalists” are the one’s with all the money.
For an eye opened listen to what Hilary had to say to Charlie Rose about war with Iran and the Middle East .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLrUZSS8-gI#t=11
One more excellent video which gives credance to Alton’s views .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=a2x6TEeknfo#t=134
Joseph, I’ve only read a little of Mark Shea, but found what I did look at way too caustic and disrespectful for my taste. There’s much to be said for civility. So I agree with you.
Mary, thanks yet again for great information. You inspire me in that, with all you obviously know and are aware of, you haven’t weakened in faith, hope or love.
If God really has a preferential option for the poor (or maybe only the Church has that) wouldn’t that extend to the poor in wit as well as to the poor in pocket who can’t fast talk, smooth talk well enough to avoid technically lying? I’m not convinced that God judges according to everything in the CCC.
“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”
It is what you do or do not do with your money time and talents that I think God judges. Unlike mortals He seems to be more concerned with your soul than your bank account.
Caroline, God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). It’s the Catholic Church that preaches a “preferential option for the poor,” which is nothing but condescending balderdash, the Catholic equivalent of the “white man’s burden.” The clergy use that banality to control the laity by inducing guilt. The clergy view the poor not as human beings created in God’s image — and, therefore, imbued with freedom, talent and will — but as puppy dogs who are incapable of caring for themselves. Just look at all the “social justice” programs the Catholic Church advocates. If the Church really cared about the poor, then the Vatican would sell some of the billions it owns in stocks, bonds, securities and shares in various corporations and holding companies, and give the proceeds to dioceses that have to close parishes and schools that serve the poor for whom the Church claims to have a “preferential option.” You think that’s going to happen? There’s a better chance that Stalin will rise from the dead and become a pacifist Buddhist.
BTW, Caroline, you’re right. God doesn’t judge according to everything in the CCC. He has far higher standards, one that the bishops and their sycophants will crash upon when they are judged.
Mary,
The globalists’ created the infinitely-expanding dollar monetary system. At the end of WWII the US was determined to destroy the British Empire. The UK was broke, but as the line goes, “Lord Halifax to Lord Keynes: the Americans have the gold but we have the brains.” Within a few years the US was running a current accounts deficit; Bretton Woods collapsed in 1971. The dollar has been going down the tubes ever since. The whole “globalist” financial system is falling apart. The only solution is another world war. Order out of chaos, I guess?
Agreed Alton and just what that Order out of this Chaos will be seems to rest on us and our recognition of it , if you are a Believer.
Joseph several weeks ago it was on our local News that Catholic schools staffed by nuns were being sold by the ArchDiocese to a corporation by the name of “Mission Faith”.
Have not researched the company yet, but the nun who was interviewed said something like they were not in the business of promoting Catholicism.
No kidding ?
Parochial schools have not been doing that for decades! In fact, back in the early nineties ,I was approached by a non Catholic who also had her kids in the local Catholic highschool. She went to the PTA to complain about the religion classes since she thought she was actually paying tuition to a Christian school. Her complaint? The nun was teaching the students how to do the so called New Age paganism of Guided Imagery and Enneagram in religion class. She said not one Catholic parent had a clue as to what she was talking about and asked me why this had happened to Catholics.
Correction, the name of the “managing ” non profit (lol) that will run the schools is Independence Mission Schools.
Note the interview with one of the nuns was not included in the online News clip.”Catholic values” are stated to be maintained.
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=9172632