Several people have raised the question of the effects of “invalid” sacraments.
Underlying this question are two views of God’s offer of salvation:
1. The existence of the Church and the sacraments narrows God’s offer of salvation (Augustine). That is, only those who are in the juridical boundaries of the Church and therefore receive valid sacraments have at least a chance at salvation – although few in fact will be saved. Outside the Church there is no salvation, and very little within.
or
2. The church is a sign and visible channel of God’s grace, but He is free to operate outside those channels. The Spirit came down on Cornelius and his household even before they were baptized. God loves all that He has created and wills to save all men.
The Augustinian view is full of contradictions. If baptism is necessary for salvation why is not reception of the Eucharist just as necessary (“Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man etc.”)? But the Western Church does not offer communion to infants. Moreover, anyone, even a pagan, can baptize, if he uses the proper words, pours the water, and intends to do what the Church does. Traditionally this was justified because baptism is necessary for salvation. But isn’t the Eucharist just as necessary?
It is common Catholic teaching that a spiritual communion (that is, without the reception of the consecrated elements) has all the grace and fruits of a sacramental communion. Presumably Protestants, even if they are celebrating an “invalid” Eucharist because they lack orders, can and do make spiritual communions which are as efficacious as sacramental communions.
Similarly, one can confess one’s sins to a fellow Christian, not just to a priest. Or if one by mistake confesses to a person who is not really a priest, or the penitent’s sins not forgiven?
The sacraments are not ways to limit salvation, but to broaden it and make it visible. They establish a physical, historical continuity with the Incarnate Word, who is entirely free to operate outside them to achieve His saving purposes.
Why bother with the visible Church then? Why did not God save men without their visible cooperation?
The human race is not a collection of individuals but a communal project – there are no self-made men. Christ is the head and source of the regenerate human race, and the visible channels that bring his salvation are His will to establish His visible presence within history, although He also continues to work invisibly or in a half-hidden way to draw all men to Himself.
Father Michael Koening
I always found St. Augustine too pessimistic and rigid in this regard. He also believed that unbaptized infants went to hell.
Peter Lombard said (and JP II quoted him on this in one of his documents) “God does not bind His power strictly to the sacraments.” Yet. the reception by desire or “in voto”of the grace ordinarily given through a particular sacrament would still presuppose that somewhere that sacrament is validly celebrated and can actually (“in res”) be received. However generous God is in acting apart from the sacraments, their actual existence and valid celebration are thus essential to His plan. I like the idea of the perceivable connection, extending back through time, to the Incarnation. Also, sacraments demand community as they cannot be self administered. Believe me, if I could absolve myself, I would!
Mary
There is a third view, between the two: the Church and her sacraments are the source in the world of the grace God offers to all. All grace int he world, comes into the world through the Body of Christ. If there were no Risen Christ present and acting through the Church, there would be no salvation present and working in the world. Christ operates “outside” of the Church, the Holy Spirit blows where He wills, because they are present in history in the Church.
Lionel Andrades
Monday, November 14, 2011
IS THE SSPX MASS VALID? YES, BUT THE PRIEST COULD BE IN MORTAL SIN FOR REJECTING A DEFINED DOGMA WITH HIS ‘EXCEPTIONS’
There are conditions for offering the Tridentine Rite Mass. Are they being met by the SSPX ?
The Society of St.Pius X(SSPX) priests offer the Tridentine Rite Mass and consider the baptism of desire and those saved in invincible ignorance as exceptions to the thrice defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.They are in the same position as the priests who offer the Novus Ordo Mass in different languages.
However the SSPX claims on its website that they affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. They also imply that those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are explicitly known to us and so it is an exception to the dogmatic teaching. This is a denial, a rejection of the dogma.
The baptism of desire is always implicit. It would have to be explicitly known to conflict with the dogma outside the church there is no salvation. Yet this is implied in the articles by Fr.Francois Laisney and Fr.Peter Scott. Since these cases are hidden they are really not exceptions. There are no defacto exceptions. If we consider them as exceptions it would mean we can meet non Catholics on the street saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire. You could say to such a person whom you meet, “ Hi John, I’m glad you were saved with the baptism of desire you arose from the dead and returned to live with us once again. I heard the same thing happened with your sister Francesca”.
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/catholics-are-fighting-it-out-on.html#links
Invincible Ignorance and the baptism of desire are not exceptions to the dogma but explicitly known invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are exceptions.So one has to imply that the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are explicitly known. We have to assume that we can meet someone on the street saved with the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance. Only because it is ‘explicitly known’ is it an exception to the dogma.If it was implicit it would not be an exception. The SSPX website says Fr.Leonard Feeney was wrong since those saved with the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are exceptions to the dogma.
Fr. Leonard Feeney was correct in saying there were no exceptions to the dogmatic teaching. The dogma does not mention exceptions. Neither does Vatican Council II refer to explicit, visible cases of those saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire. It refers to implicit cases known to God only.
There are conditions for offering the Tridentine Rite Mass. Are they being met by the SSPX ?
-Lionel Andrades
NO TRIDENTINE RITE MASS WITHOUT EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/07/no-tridentine-rite-mass-without-extra.html#links
PRIESTS WHO OFFER TRIDENTINE-RITE AND NOVUS ORDO MASS AGREE THAT WE DO NOT DEFACTO KNOW A SINGLE CASE OF THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE: WE HAVE UNITY ON OUTSIDE THE CHURCH NO SALVATION
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/06/priests-who-offer-tridentine-rite-and.html#links
FR.FRANCOIS LAISNEY OF THE SOCIETY OF ST.PIUS X SAYS THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS HAS EXCEPTIONS. THIS IS HERESY
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/frfrancois-laisney-of-society-of-stpius.html#links
SOCIETY OF ST.PIUS X CAUSING CONFUSION ON ECUMENISM
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/society-of-stpius-x-causing-confusion.html
NORMS FOR THE TRIDENTINE RITE MASS VIOLATED ?
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/norms-for-tridentine-rite-mass-violated.html
NON CATHOLICS CAN BE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE, BAPTISM OF DESIRE AND IT DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS- Daphne McLeod, Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice, England
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/non-catholics-can-be-saved-in.html
INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE AND THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE ARE NOT EXCEPTIONS TO THE DOGMA BUT A BOOK SOLD BY THE SSPX SAYS THEY ARE
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/invincible-ignorance-and-baptism-of.html#links
FR. PETER SCOTT, SSPX NEED TO ISSUE A CLARIFICATION: HOW CAN THOSE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE AND THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE BE EXCEPTIONS TO THE DOGMA?
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/fr-peter-scott-sspx-need-to-issue.html
BISHOP ROBERT FINN, BISHOP RAYMOND BOLAND AFFIRM THE ‘RIGORIST INTERPRETATION’ OF EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS : NO DENIAL FROM KANSAS CITY
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/bishop-robert-finn-bishop-raymond.html#links
BISHOP EMERITUS RAYMOND J.BOLAND OF KANSAS CITY CORRESPONDS WITH FR.PETER SCOTT OF THE SSPX ON THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/bishop-emeritus-raymond-jboland-of.html#links
SSPX ,CATHOLIC TRADITIONALISTS ARE ANATHEMA ACCORDING TO THE SYLLABUS OF ERRORS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/sspx-catholic-traditionalists-are.html
DAPHNE MCLEOD COMMENT A BOMBSHELL FOR ENGLISH BISHOPS?
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/daphne-mcleod-comment-bombshell-for.html
ASSISI INTERFAITH MEETING OCT.27: OLD PROBLEM AMONG TRADITIONALISTS SURFACE
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/assisi-interfaith-meeting-oct27-old.html
SSPX CONSIDERS THOSE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE AND WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE AS DE FACTO KNOWN TO US : DISCERNING LIBERALS MUST BE LAUGHING UP THEIR SLEEVE
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/sspx-considers-those-saved-in_24.html
SSPX CONSIDERS THOSE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE AND WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE AS EXCEPTIONS TO THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS THIS IS HERESY
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/sspx-considers-those-saved-in.html
SSPX IN HERESY CALLS ATTENTION TO HERESY AT ASSISI
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/07/sspx-in-heresy-calls-attention-to.html#links
SSPX CLARIFY FOR US WHAT IS YOUR DOCTRINAL POSITION ON THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/09/sspx-clarify-for-us-what-is-your.html#links
ARCHBISHOP MARCEL LEFEBVRE CALLED “TO PREACH” THE RIGORIST INTERPRETATION OF “EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS”
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/07/archbishop-marcel-lefebvre-called-to.html#links
SSPX CLARIFY FOR US WHAT IS YOUR DOCTRINAL POSITION ON THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/09/sspx-clarify-for-us-what-is-your.html#links
Michael Voris Hits the Jackpot…that is, “the dogma”- Brother André Marie MICM :RealCatholicTV affirms the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/09/michael-voris-hits-jackpotthat-is-dogma.html#links
CATHOLIC LAY PROFESSOR AT UNIVERSITA EUROPA DI ROMA AFFIRMS DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/catholic-lay-professor-at-universita.html
LEGIONARY OF CHRIST PRIEST FR.RAFAEL PASCUAL AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/legionary-of-christ-priest-frrafael.html
FR.TULLIO ROTONDO AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/08/frtullio-rotondo-affirms-cantate-domino.html#links
CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS IS DE FIDE AND NOT CONTRADICTED BY VATICAN COUNCIL II- Fr. Nevus Marcello O.P
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/07/cantate-domino-council-of-florence-on.html
BRAZILIAN PRIEST SAYS VATICAN COUNCIL II DOES NOT CONTRADICT DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/07/brazilian-priest-says-vatican-council.html#links
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR CHRISTIAN UNITY INDICATES POPES, SAINTS IN HERESY
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/pontifical-council-for-christian-unity.html
Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity claims Pope Pius XII condemned the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus :suggests those in invincible ignorance are explicitly known to us and so contradicts the dogma
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/pontifical-council-for-promoting.html
Vatican website for clergy promotes ‘theology of religions’, Kung and Knitter : claims Fr.Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for the same interpretation of the dogma as the popes and saints
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/vatican-webste-for-clergy-promotes.html
CATHOLIC PRIESTS IN ROME AGREE WITH FR.LEONARD FEENEY: THERE IS NO BAPTISM OF DESIRE THAT WE CAN KNOW OF
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/08/catholic-priests-in-rome-agree-with.html#links
CATHOLIC HERALD, U.K: IS IT STILL CATHOLIC?
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/catholic-herald-uk-is-it-still-catholic.html
ANGELICUM UNIVERSITY IS CHURNING OUT THEOLOGY DEGREES FOR THOSE WHO SAY FR.LEONARD FEENEY WAS EXCOMMUNICATED FOR REJECTING THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/angelicum-university-is-churning-out.html
SSPX BISHOPS, PRIESTS REJECT EX CATHEDRA DOGMA OFFICIALY, OFFER MASS: NO CONTRADICTION FROM BISHOP BERNARD FELLAY
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/06/sspx-bishops-priests-reject-ex-cathedra.html
BISHOP BERNARD FELLAY AFFIRMS RIGORIST INTERPRETATION OF EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS : CONFUSION ON SEDEVANTIST WEBSITE
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/09/bishop-bernard-fellay-affirms-rigorist.html
CDF, VATICAN, SSPX, MOST HOLY FAMILY MONASTERY IN TENSION OVER STRAWMAN
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/09/cdf-vatican-sspx-most-holy-family.html
ARCHBISHOP MARCEL LEFEBVRE HAD AFFIRMED THE RIGORIST INTERPRETATION OF THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/09/archbishop-marcel-lefebvre-had-affirmed.html
SSPX SUPERIOR CONFIRMS HERESY
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/09/tridentine-rite-priests-in-rome-using.html